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11 comments:
So if we are all predestined then God ordained sin...
Wow, that's a jump. I would be curious to how you would answer these questions:
1. What do you personally do with all the verses that speak of people being predestined and elected? (such as when the actual word 'presdestined' is used, ie Rom 8:29-30, Eph 1:1-14, etc).
2. Where do you think sin came from? Did it sneak up on God? Was He caught off guard? Was it something He knew nothing about until it showed up? If God created everything, where did it come from? If God knows everything, from whence did it come? If man chose to sin, mustn't sin have been there to be chosen?
My answer to question one is that I take it for what it says, especially considering the many, many other verses and chapters that backup that assertion. There are libraries of books that can answer any questions you may have. I would start with www.monergism.com.
To the second question I answer you that I honestly don't know where sin came from. Much of and in the Bible is a mystery. We are told what we need to know, not everything we want to know. There are a multitude of issues and topics and workings that are just, as the Apostle Paul says, a mystery. I can, however, say with all confidence that God is not the author of sin. As this question has been struggled with since...well...forever, I don't feel so bad that I don't have a nice simple answer for you. I do ask that you look at your own opinion and humbly admit that the flip side of the coin (Arminianism, free will, etc) offers no better an answer! You can find many resources through out the internet that debate this topic of the origin of sin. I admit my inferiority to do so and leave it to the more able.
I think one of the problems with the whole Reformed/Arminism debate is that most people (on both sides) have no idea what they are arguing against. We set up straw men and knock them down over and over again. Everyone has the go-to phrase or door slammer verse. I can't tell you how many people yell "John 3:16!!" at me, even though I take it as a verse towards the reformed view. =P If you want a really good explanation of the reformed view by people much more studied than me I must recommend the following DVD to you.
http://www.theapologeticsgroup.com/cms/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,67/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,1/vmcchk,1/
I thank you for taking the time to comment and hope that my response at least help you to see my view. In the future, please feel free to register so that i may know who I am conversing with. ;) I look forward to your reply, as well as replies from other readers.
No sin did not sneak up on God, he has always known what was going to happen. You say that God is not the author of sin, I fully agree but if He predestined everything, then he predestined satan to fall and for man to fall so then yes he is! you mentioned that a lot of the bible is a mystery..by saying this do you mean that there are passages that cannot be interpreted? if thats the case then what about this passage? 2 Pt 1:20 when you see the word predestined in Romans 8 you also see God's foreknowlege. And do you believe in John 3:16 where it says God so loved the world that is just talking about a certain part of the world? if that be the case then you need to refer to the language in which the scriptures were written and look at the word for world: the word is-kosmos, now grated there are several words for world in the greek but the word kosmos is used in John 3:16. I cannot believe that Jesus just died for a select few when the bible plainly states over and over "whosoever" thank you for replying to me and God bless
I'm with Brandon on the "Wow, that's a jump" part. I assume with such a random predestination comment that you up do a discussion on the topic. So here are my thoughts on what you have posted in your response to Brandon:
1. If you agree that sin did not sneak up on God, then when you would have to agree that he allowed it however it came to be. Is God not in control of the universe? Do you think that the fall of man put a glitch in God's perfect plan and that God had to send Jesus as damage control? I believe Jesus was the plan all along and all for the glory of the Almighty God.
2. I think that what Brandon said about mystery in the BIble is that there are things that our imperfect human brains can not understand and I believe God meant it to be that way. In regard to 2 Pt 1:20, you sort of need to include the rest of the sentence it's contained it and more so the rest of the scripture surrounding it. Peter is saying to The Church that they need to pay attention to the Word, or as he calls the prophetic word. He is saying the the Word is not simply someone's interpretation or opinion and is not even written by the will of man but its from God through the power of the Holy Spirit. He's talking about those who wrote the Bible not those who read it. So, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with that sliver of scripture.
3. As for Romans 8, how does God's foreknowledge cancel out his predestination? The word foreknowledge actually means to fore love. In verses 8:28-30 where do you see any action from man? You don't, because there is none. Our salvation is of God and God alone from start to finish.
4. When it comes to Jesus' death on the cross and for who the atonement is for, why don't we look at the words of Jesus himself in Mark 10:45 "For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for MANY."
There are many other things that I can say, but since I do believe in the sovereignty of God, I'm going to leave it at that.
Again, thanks for your comments.
I first want to thank whoever this person is for asking tough quesitons. We haven't had a lot of discussion in a while and frankly I have been off a bit as far as posting. Second I want to confess that part of me is tempted to be arrogant or prideful in the fact that, "yay! I get to show my smarts and intellect now". I am going to share what I feel and believe anyway, not because I want to boast, but because scripture tells us to be ready to give the reason for the hope in which we belive and to be gentle in our answers. So, let me say that I have once been where you are and only by the grace of God, nothing within me, that I have come to be where I am. As Paul says, "by the grace of God I am what I am."
I believe your first question was, if God predestines everything than he is the author of sin. That is a tough question to answer and one that I think words must first be defined as to what they mean before you can answer the question. When you say author, do you mean that he is the one that has planned it? Or do you mean that he is the one that carries it out or does the actual sinning?
It is my belief that God has planned all things from all time. He has ordained the beginning from the end. Isaiah 46:9-11 "for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.' calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it."
Or Psalms 139:16 "Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them."
Now, just from those two verses we can tell that 1) God knows all things from the very beginning to the very end, 2)that God's counsel or will or plan will be done, 3) that God is the one who brings it to pass, and 4)that he not only knows our days, but he has formed them before even one of them came to be. Now that either applies only to King David or it even applies to Adam who sinned. Before any of Adam's days came to be, God had already formed them and His will and purpose came to pass.
That is one of the basis for which I will answer, "Yes, God is the author of sin." But don't confuse author and actor as the same people. God in His wisdom has ordained things so as to be sure that they will happen and come to pass while still maintaining His holiness as to not be the one who actually does the sinning. Another verse that I used to wrestle early on with is found in Romans 8:18-25 and it says, "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself wil lbe set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience."
I went ahead and included that whole section, but there is one point I want to focus on. Who subjected creation to futility? What does subject mean? Whoever it was we know that creation was subjected, not because creation was willing to be subjected but because of the one who subjected it. Was Adam the one who subjected creation to futility? One might answer yes, but was it Adam's plan that he subject creation to futility so that it could later be freed to the glory of God? No. Was the devil the one who subjected creation to futility? He played a role in it, but I don't think it was satan's purpose to cause sin so that later on in the end God could ultimately be glorified. Could it be that God subjected creation to futility through the actions of men, so that he could ultimately in the end bring Glory to his name by offering Hope in Jesus Christ? I think so. Adam carried out the action, satan tempted Adam and Eve, but it was God who planned it for His glory. I understand that this is hard to wrestle with and that it goes against everything that we feel is right. But I ask two questions before I am done. Do we develop our beliefs based on what we "feel" God should be like? Or do we base our beliefs on what God infacts says he is like in scripture? Do we give satan the glory by saying that it was man's fault, or satan's fault that sin came about, the whole time not being able to explain if fully? Or do we glorify God in faith and trust that he planned it in his wisdom and that the scripture is true when it says, "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?" even though we don't understand it fully? Trusting in God's soveriegnty is by the grace of God being able to trust in His goodness and mercy. I pray that God would show you that even in the hard things that he is a good God. May you be blessed.
Thank you all for responding to my comments. I have done study on the subject of predestination for years. Why then did God give Adam and Eve a choice? so you all believe that God has puppet strings on us all then? In Matthew 7 Jesus talks about the straight and narrow gates: He tells those to go into the straight gate because broad is the way that leads to destruction. yes he did say many go into the broad gate, few into the straight..reason for this being people don't want to hear about only one way to heaven, they want to go to heaven their own way not God's. if we are predestined then why did Christ preach so much on hell? why give such warnings? how do you balance out predestination with the worldwide preaching of the gospel? you can't! if things are predestined then our preaching isn't going to change the fact that God will get his elect in. so why are we commanded to preach? Jeremy, you need to ask God to fill you with humility. You need to understand that your so called intellect is not your own but God gave it to you. He gives and He takes away..God bless
Why did he give them a choice? For His glory. He does all things for His glory. That’s about as simple as you can get. Do I believe that we are puppets on a string? No, because puppets don’t get to do what they want, puppets are lifeless pieces of wood, cardboard, Styrofoam, or some other fabric. I am not. I am a human being who has intellect, a heart, emotions, and a spirit. I make decisions, grant it most of the time they are focused on me, but I make decisions. Puppets do not. But these decisions are made according to the will and counsel of God. Proverbs 20:24 “A man’s steps are from the Lord; how then can man understand his way?” Like I said before, God brings about His will and plan through the decisions of man. We make and carry out, but God plans them. Jeremiah 10:23 “I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.” Once again I think you need to base your beliefs off of scripture instead of off your feelings or thoughts. God according to your thoughts and emotions is not the God of the bible, but merely an idol that you have set up in your heart that you can deal with and manage. The God of the bible is not so easily manageable. He does not conform to your thoughts, but his ways are higher than yours.
Now on to your second statement about Jesus talking about the straight and narrow gate and commanding people to enter them. You assume that just because God or Christ commands something of us that we are able to do it. Just because God or Christ commands us to do something DOES NOT mean that we are able to do it. It means that we are required to do it, and he is worthy of us to do it. If in your head you are thinking that God can only require of you what you are able to do, than I would suggest that you are wrong. For God and Christ both command us to be perfectly holy. Matthew 5:48 “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Are you perfectly holy? I think not. Christ commands things and sets the law to show us that we cannot do it, that we do not want to do it, that we are unable to do it, and that our only hope is Christ Jesus. Romans 5:20 “The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” And again in Romans 7:7 “What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law.” The law points us to Christ. Christ commands so that we might know our inability and the wrath that is coming against us so that we might cry out to God through Christ, “Have mercy son of God!” Do people enter the narrow gate? Yes. Why? Not because they were able to make a decision but by the grace of God alone! Will you please show me one example in the bible where a person chose to follow Christ and where Christ did not first choose them? Scripture clearly states, in the book of John, “you did not choose me, but I chose you.”
You say that there is no need to preach the Gospel if people are predestined. The bible clearly tells us that no one will be saved without hearing the gospel because; believing comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. If someone claims to be a disciple of Christ and yet believe he is not called to preach, then he his foolish and does not understand the gospel. The gospel is the power of salvation unto those who believe. God’s sovereignty greatly encourages us because we understand that all we are to do is preach and proclaim, it is the work of the Holy Spirit to awaken the dead. Do you know everyone who will ever be elected? No. Do I know everyone who will ever be elected? No. So then I act and preach as though everyone will be saved and leave the rest up to God.
Now, for the last statement about my humility. I understand very much my own thoughts, emotions, and arrogance at times. I also understand that God is gracious and as I confess to him, which I believe I did at the beginning of my post, that he is faithful and just and will cleanse me of it. I also believe that I already stated that my intellect and faith are not of my own doing but of the grace of God. My theology does not allow me to take any credit for anything good in my life, I can only take responsibility for my sin. I have nothing to boast of except the grace of God. On the other hand, your theology leaves much room to boast, because you have made a decision to follow Christ. If you can make a decision to follow Christ, than you can make a decision to study more, pray more, read more, and serve more. You have something to boast about. The bible will not have it so and neither will my theology and belief, which is why I hate the pompousness of the belief that people can contribute to their own salvation. In reality, these people are not trying to glorify God, they are only trying to save and salvage what little bit of glory they think they have in themselves. I pray that God would give you the light of the knowledge of the Glory of Christ and that he would grant repentance unto you, so that you may see and savor the sovereignty and glory of God and be thankful.
Thank you for continuing the conversation commenter. I do not have internet at home and can only really get on here when I have a few spare minutes at work so please forgive my not responding earlier.
I had this carefully worded, bible verse filled reply but Jeremy and Kristian beat me to the punch! I fully agree with their comments and I think adding to it before you reply would just be unnecessary. I will, however, address the question re: John 3:16.
I feel as perhaps, you did not read fully my first comment where I stated that I get John 3:16 yelled at me all the time despite the fact that it in no way promotes a free will or debunks election. I take John 3:16 at face value: God DOES love the WORLD so much that he sent his Son that WHOSOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Christ is available to the whole world – Jew, Gentile, black, white, rich, poor, American, German, Japanese, etc. Jesus was not for one people or race. I don’t see in there where God promises to make it possible for everyone to choose Christ. Whosoever is actually a limiting word (and since you want to go Greek, there is no word in Greek for “whosoever” if I’m not mistaken). Now, if the verse said “whosoever, without exception” I might consider it. On top of that, what do you make of John 17: 6,9:
“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word……I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.”
Is Jesus praying for no on at all, since he does say he does not pray for the world? Or does he mean the physical, ground world? The Greek used for ‘world’ in John 3:16 is also used to mean the ground where men live. Perhaps he doesn’t mean the whole world at all and just means a certain selection of people? I’d be interested in your interpretation of this verse in light of John 3:16.
Speaking of the Book of John, what do you take from:
John 10:25-30
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
and
John 6:37-44
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?" Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Lastly, you say that the bible plainly says “whosever” over and over, but this just does not line up with Scripture [I do not mean the use of the word, but rather the application]. The Bible goes out of its way to speak on being predestined, elected, called, hearts hardened, and so on. It is only when you take what the Bible says and try to make it fit what you believe rather than taking what the Bible says and accepting it as truth that you can gloss over election/predestination.
I didn’t proof read since I am still at work so bear with any slight mistakes. Thank you for your comments and I look forward to your future replies.
Brandon, first of all I would like to thank you for discussing our differences like a christian ought to. Jeremy I believe you understood what I meant about the puppets. I certainly hope you aren't made of wood and lifeless, I am going to pray for you my friend because when God brings you down from your high horse it will be a nasty fall..in that case I have been where you are. If I were a lost person dealing with you I would see nothing more than an arrogant young man who thinks he has an inside track to the Most High. A friend of mine got this study together for me I am interested to hear your thoughts on this: Unfortunately, there has been much confusion concerning 'free will' vs. 'predestination' in the Body of Christ, and the result has been that Calvinism has clouded the minds of believers and sown passivity and hardness of heart into many in the body of Christ.
The first thing we must understand is that there has indeed been a partial 'hardening' of Israel for the sake of the gospel. Romans 9 speaks of God's choice of Israel from among the nations, and God's choice of the children of promise (faith) over the children of the flesh (Law). Some have misconstrued this to say that God's has predetermined the salvation or condemnation of every person on earth, which Romans 10 thoroughly discounts. Romans 11 explains Romans 9.
Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
This blindness can be seen in Jesus' teachings. His disciples asked Him why He taught the people in parables.
Mt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
What was Jesus' reasoning for hiding the things of the kingdom from many in Israel?
Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Israel had come to trust in their own righteousness and not the righteousness which is by faith, and they had hardened their hearts to God.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
He came unto His own, Israel, and the greater part of Israel, especially the Pharisees and rulers of the people did not recognize Him. They had become hardened to God.
Therefore, in that context Jesus said to His disciples:
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit
God was drawing to Jesus those in Israel whose hearts remained opened. From those He chose 12 that they should go and bring forth fruit.
However, through the redemption of the cross, the door is now opened to all men and God is drawing all to Himself.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Tit 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
The word of reconciliation is the Gospel which we have been commissioned to preach in the whole world. Those who believe will be saved. Jesus has paid the price for the sin of the world, and the gift of righteousness now exists for whosoever believes. Those who reject God's reconciliation will face His eternal punishment. But the Gospel is drawing men unto God. There are those, however, who will resist this knowledge and continue in darkness.
Ro 1:19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Ro 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Thus, God has revealed Himself to man and every man is free to seek and to know God. The Gospel draws them. That is why we must preach to every nation (Matt. 28:18-20)
Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
God's love and compassion for mankind was revealed when He became man and suffered the penalty of our sin for us. His grace and mercy have opened the door to eternal life with Him. It is a free gift to all.
Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Those who receive the gift of righteousness will be saved.
Rom 5:17 .....much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
Calvinists speak of men being ‘spiritually dead’ and unable to participate in their salvation in any way. The term 'spiritually dead' does not mean that fallen man has no spirit and is nothing more than an animal (which would be the result if man's spirit was dead). Even though fallen and cut off from the Spirit of God, man continues to have a human spirit that is capable of choice.
The Biblical examples of choice are too numerous to mention. Rom. 10:14 is just one of hundreds of examples:
Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
There is a difference between foreknowledge and predestination. When the New Testament speaks of predestination, it is speaking of the image that we will bear when we are born again. We are predestined to bear the image of the Son, and not some other image (Rom. 8:29).
The fact that God has known from creation who would accept and who would reject His love in no way implies that they were predetermined to salvation or hell. Knowing something is not determining it. We may see an accident about to happen in the street and know that someone is about to be hit by a car (unknown to them), but that doesn't mean we have predetermined it to happen.
There would be no point in preaching the gospel to all nations, nor any point in praying, asking, believing and receiving, if everything was predetermined. We would be like the other false religions of the world who attribute all events both good and bad to God. "Whatever will be, will be." This is a doctrine of demons that creates a passivity and arrogance that God hates.
Paul made an interesting statement concerning the Jews who opposed his preaching.
1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved
The implications of this statement are huge! Paul was saying that those who opposed him and kept him from preaching to certain gentiles were effectively cutting them off from their chance at salvation! The Word must be heard and believed, and if we don't preach, even those who might have been saved won't be. There is no hint of predestination in this verse.
All men, though fallen, still have a human spirit with which they may respond to God. Rom. 1:18-32 gives a detailed account of those who know there is a God but choose to reject that knowledge and give themselves over to sin. They even know that there is judgment for such activities (v.32) but have pleasure in those who accompany them in their sin. This is choice, not predestination.
How does God quicken a 'dead' person? By His Word. When the seed of the Word reaches the heart of man, depending on the receptivity of that heart (the soil) the Word grows and reveals the love and grace of God. The goodness of God leads men to repentance (Rom. 2:4) That Word contains the faith necessary (a gift) to respond. When we believe with our hearts and confess with our mouth (Rom. 10:9-10), the spiritual transaction of the new birth takes place. It was all a gift, but the response came from the heart of fallen man who heard and believed the Word of God. God bless
I respect each of you for sharing your wisdom and opinions; however I must admit it saddens me to witness Christians tearing down other Christians. Jeremy is a close friend of mine and the Lord has used him in great ways to grow me in my walk with Him. We are all human and struggle with selfishness and pride rather we like to admit or not. Jeremy- I respect you for admiting to your stuggle and Anonymous -I pray that God would give you compassion for all of His children...even those you may not agree with.
Regardless of what we believe God has drawn us to Him with a much greater purpose than debating theology with other believers. Rather than aruing the reason we are commanded to spread the gospel to all nations, why don't we exert that same energy towards living out this command?
In Christ
Okay. Here we go. I want to apologize for taking so long to get back a response but you know how things go.
First things first. I am sorry that you feel as though when you talk to me or converse with me that you see an arrogant young man who thinks he has an inside track to the Most High. I thought I dealt with that in my very first post but I guess I did not do a good job at conveying that. I will not however apologize for my beliefs or for my words. I hope that you do not confuse my choice of words with being unbiblical or unnecessary. I believe that what you are teaching is false doctrine and biblically wrong and so I will treat it just as that and speak of it just as that. When Jesus or Paul addressed the false teachers of the New Testament he wasn’t very kind to them and he didn’t use nice words. I am sure at times he called them dogs, children of the devil, puffed up with conceit, clouds without water, brood of vipers, depraved of mind, wicked, and lastly evil. Paul did not apologize for having to be harsh to correct wrong teachings, and neither will I.
Now on to your friend’s study.
I am not sure if your friend’s study is saying that God only predestines the people of Israel, or if God only predestines certain people, or if God doesn’t predestine anyone at all. I am really not sure what point he or she is making. (I am going to say he, for the rest of this post, because I do not feel like saying he or she the whole time.)
I would answer that God has predestined all people to life or death, that he does not just only predestine certain people to certain things. I would also argue that God does not just predestine the people of Israel. He has not just only hardened the Israelites.
Romans 9:19-24 “You will say to me then, ‘Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?’ But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, ‘Why have you made me like this?’ Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles.”
I want to point out some things Paul is saying here. 1) God has every right as God over every piece of clay. He has every right to mold us in whatever way he sees fit for His glory. Do you agree? Or would you object and tell the creator of the universe that he might be able to mold everyone else, but he cannot and will not touch you? 2)He also says that he molds for honorable use and dishonorable use. For Good and for Bad. He shows us what he means by honorable and dishonorable by saying that he prepares some for destruction, and some for glory. Now either destruction clearly means to be destroyed or it doesn’t mean anything at all. To prepare means to plan for a purpose. 3) He then clarifies that God does not only do this to the Jews, but also to the Gentiles.
So, how can you say that God does not prepare, predestine, or ordain people for certain uses? The fact that certain people get outraged when they hear that God predestines all things and their reaction is, “well if that’s the case then how can God blame me for doing his will?” clearly shows that this is exactly what Paul is teaching. If Paul was teaching that salvation depended on man’s decision than there would be no room for outrage, but because he is teaching that it “depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy” people do get outraged. They want to blame God for their sin, and make him obliged to forgive them and have mercy on them. No! He has mercy on whomever he chooses!
Also, if that study is implying that God only predestined the Jews then why in the New Testament, which is written to Gentiles and Jews, does Paul write, you have been predestined for salvation?
On to the next point that he makes, the idea that the reason certain Jews were chosen or predestined was because their heart remained open to God. That makes salvation and election conditional, based upon God seeing something in them that merited or deserved for God to be generous to them and save them. What about Jacob and Esau?
Romans 9:11-13 “though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works, but because of his call- she was told, ‘The older will serve the younger.’ As it is written, ‘Jacob I loved, and Esau I hated.”
Here we see that, before either of them could even close their heart, trust in themselves, and reject God, God had already determined what would happen and which one would have which destiny. Even the Jews or Disciples that Jesus did choose did not recognize Christ. John clearly says about himself in the book of John 1:29-33,
“The next day he(John) saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, ‘Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me. I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.’ And John bore witness: ‘I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’
John did not recognize him! You are right! He came to his own and yet his own did not recognize him. God had to graciously tell John, “hey, that’s my son.” Would John have recognized Jesus as the Christ if God did not graciously act and move first? No! But God did act and did move, and because of God’s grace John was included in the plan of God which God planned. A gift is not earned, or worked for; it is exactly that, a gift. What do you have that you did not receive? God gave to the disciples the knowledge to know and understand. No one can understand the things of God unless he has the spirit of God within him, for they are spiritually discerned. They are spiritually dead and do not understand that this is the truth. So unless God moves and gives his spirit none will choose him.
Jesus has paid the price for the whole world? Really? Let me ask a question then. What does Christ death on the cross and his shed blood accomplish? What does it do? What does it affect or change? Does Christ death on the cross propitiate the wrath of God? Does Christ death turn away the wrath of God? If God’s wrath has been turned away from everyone then he cannot possible be angry at anyone, for his anger and wrath have been turned away. If Christ died to save everyone, then his death and resurrection must either have actually saved everyone or no one at all. To say that Christ has paid the price of a ransom to free sinners and yet he does not get what he pays for is to make Jesus Christ a foolish buyer, for he indeed does not get what he paid for. Or could it be that he “lays down his life for the sheep” according to John 10:15? Does he lay down his life for all people? Or does he only lay it down for the sheep? You tell me what the scripture says.
Does the cross only open the door that everyone may be saved? If that is the case then once you come through the door you have to add something to what Christ has done. Or does the death of Christ actually save? If it actually saves, then the person must indeed be saved, or his death was in vain.
As for the idea that fallen man has the capacity to make decisions, I couldn’t agree with you more. However, scripture clearly tells us that NONE SEEK GOD! What does that mean if it doesn’t mean that no one seeks, chooses, or goes after God? Romans 8:7 “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law, indeed IT CANNOT. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” Does man have choice? Sure he does, but it is always for himself and his own glory and selfishness. So now you have to decide, are certain people born into the flesh and others into the Spirit? Or are all people alike born into the flesh? If they are born into the flesh than 1) they cannot submit to God’s law 2) they cannot please God, and 3) they do not have the Spirit to understand the things of God. So what is it? Are all people born into the flesh and unable? Or are some people born into the Spirit? Or does God through Jesus Christ become the just one who condemns and the one who justifies?
“The fact that God has known from creation who would accept and who would reject His love in no way implies that they were predetermined to salvation or hell.” Hmm. If God knows that someone will reject his Son and so be sentenced to Hell afterward and yet still creates the person knowing that, how is it any different than God planning that the person will reject his Son? Both ways the person ends up in Hell and God knew it!
You say that predestination makes Christianity like other religions where their God is both the god of good and bad. So are you saying that our God is not the God of both good and bad happening? Job 2:10 “But he said to her, ‘You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?’ In all this Job did not sin with his lips.” Or in Amos 3:3-6 “Do two walk together, unless they have agreed to meet? Does a lion roar in the forest, when he has no prey? Does a young lion cry out from his den, if he has taken nothing? Does a bird fall in a snare on the earth, when there is no trap for it? Does a snare spring up from the ground, when it has taken nothing? Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid?” the answer to these are all NO!, so shall the answer to the next one be. “Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?” No, disaster does not come to a city, unless the Lord has done it. So I say to you the same way Job says to his wife, you speak as a foolish man or woman!
You act as if I oppose the preaching of the gospel. Shall it be far from me, I am opposed to false doctrine that teaches that man has in him some inkling of an ability to do right, choose God, and so contribute to his own salvation. No, I preach the gospel that says, sinner, you have rebelled against a Holy God who is just to condemn you to hell for an eternity. There is nothing that you can do to save yourself. (At which point the sinner will ask, what must I do then to be saved?) I then will say, there stood one in your place, Jesus Christ, who lived the life that you chose not to live, who earned eternal life with his perfect life that he lived. For he loved the Father with a perfect love and yet he chose to bear your punishment and the wrath of God that you so rightly deserve. He was crushed for your iniquity, and pierced for your transgressions. The death you deserved he died, and yet the Father raised him from eternal life to defeat the powers of darkness and to put an end to sin. (At which point I pray and plead before God, that he would so work in the sinners heart that the sinner would begin to believe what I preach and so be saved.) Christ has paid your penalty and became sin for you, the reward he has won he has transferred over to those who have faith in his life, death , and resurrection. Now confess your sin, and plead to God in heaven that he would have mercy on your soul. Repent and turn from your sin and trust in the work that what I tell you Jesus did actually happened.
And if at any point the sinner has a light shown into their hearts, it is because God has said, “Let light shine out of darkness” and has awakened their heart unto the truth of the Gospel. Not because they were smart enough, or open enough, or had just enough goodness left in them, but because of the grace of God. That is the Gospel that I proclaim, for I boast only in Christ and nothing in myself.
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